Metaverse 2: Venture Capitalist Judgement Day (Feat. münecat) – Crypto Critics' Corner
Cas Piancey and Bennett Tomlin are joined by münecat to discuss crypto, web3, and whether or not a neofeudalistic state run by Peter Thiel is desirable.
Make sure to check out münecat’s excellent video on crypto here:
Her Gary Vee episode we discussed:
Her GB News episode we mentioned:
Other episodes mentioned in this show:
- Episode 63 – We Need to Talk about El Salvador (Feat. Mario Gómez and Oscar Salguero)
- Episode 58 – Cities and the Blockchain
Here are some of the articles and stats referenced during the episode:
- The book she mentioned by George Gilder: Life After Google
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Cas Piancey: Welcome back, everyone. Cas Piancey: I am Cas Piancey, and I'm joined as usual by my partner in crime, Mr. Cas Piancey: Bennett. Cas Piancey: Tomlin, how are you this morning? Bennett Tomlin: I'm doing well, Cas, how are you? Cas Piancey: I'm doing good. Cas Piancey: We are joined by a very special guest today. Cas Piancey: She goes by the moniker münecat on YouTube. Cas Piancey: Welcome. Cas Piancey: How are you, münecat? münecat: Hello. münecat: I'm good, thank you. Cas Piancey: We're having you on today specifically because you decided to do a video that covers web3, the Metaverse, NFT, whatever you want to call it, and was incredibly critical. Cas Piancey: It was a very long video as well. Cas Piancey: It's over an hour long. Cas Piancey: If anyone wants to check it out, I highly recommend it. Cas Piancey: We're going to leave it in the show notes, but we're talking to you because I haven't seen as entertaining a video as that one was that could be that critical. Cas Piancey: So I want to talk about not just your process, but also why did you jump into this? Cas Piancey: Why are you fascinated by this, I don't know, space ecosystem, whatever you want to call it. münecat: Yeah. münecat: So I've been keeping an eye on the space for quite a long time, and I've always been interested in scams. münecat: And so I got started out on YouTube investigating MLMs, and then I sort of moved on to sort of get rich quick schemes and also motivational speakers in general, because I feel like the whole thing is very connected. münecat: The same psychology in cult mentality is used throughout the whole thing. münecat: And I noticed crypto becoming very mainstream, very popular. münecat: And I found all of the same sort of mind tricks being used, I suppose. münecat: So I naturally found it really interesting, kept an eye on it for a long time, and then I decided to really jump into it at the start of January this year. münecat: And then it took me like, yeah, I guess nearly a whole three months to kind of investigate everything. münecat: And even then, there was still so much more I didn't talk about in my video, like, so many extra scams and everything that I could have talked about and so many things to do with how awful it would be if Bitcoin became the world currency. münecat: Like, it's such a dystopian thing to think about. münecat: And I didn't even, like, fully go into that thought experiment. münecat: But it's quite a lot to take in and think about, but I had to sort of try and decide, okay, what's the most important thing I need to talk about here? münecat: And it was still an hour and 40 minutes long after I got rid of a load of things that I could have talked about. Cas Piancey: Well, we never seem to run out of topics for discussion because, like you said, there's just so many scams everywhere. Cas Piancey: But you brought up some really compelling arguments. Cas Piancey: I think it helped me to recognize once again, I think I had not been as focused on the venture capitalist side of it and how gross the venture capital side is and how it really does feel. Cas Piancey: It does feel like it's like poisoning the well. Cas Piancey: If there is any decent water that is in this system, it's being poisoned as we speak. münecat: Yeah. münecat: I don't think the people who are really excited about crypto really understand the full extent of how much VCs are involved in this and how they're basically the same people that they think that they're fighting against. münecat: It's quite worrying, really, and how powerful Peter Thiel really is and how scary. münecat: That was the most shocking thing that I found when I looked into it, just his whole story and like, how these sort of right wing, conspiratorially minded people are very they love the idea. münecat: But the thing is that they're also really scared of this whole one world government thing happening. münecat: But if that's going to happen, it's going to be Peter Thiel. münecat: There's not some crazy conspiracy happening on the government side. münecat: It's definitely Peter Thiel who will do it. münecat: If anybody does it, it will be Peter Tail. Cas Piancey: Yeah. Cas Piancey: He had his whole Seasteading venture that he tried to do, and that failed miserably. Cas Piancey: But he also something that Bennett has been looking into more so than myself is that he is very politically active in. münecat: Yes, in America. Cas Piancey: Donald Trump, a lot of really awful politicians. Cas Piancey: Don't let it stop there. münecat: Yeah, he's donated a lot to Donald Trump. münecat: And I find that very interesting because Donald Trump was also the President. münecat: That sort of decreased everybody's trust in democracy overall, which I think even though, like, Peter Thiel is an intelligent guy and I don't think Donald Trump is, but I think he was behind him as President because he literally made everybody think this democracy thing is maybe not quite so good, and that's in his interest. münecat: So it's like, really clever, if you think about it. Cas Piancey: I hate giving that concept credit, though. Cas Piancey: A lot of people on cryptocurrency, Twitter, I think Bennett was talking to some of them yesterday where a lot of them proposed the idea that if Bennett was basically suggesting that almost all of the politicians that these cryptocurrency Bros vote for, first of all, they're voting for them because of one single issue, which is their pro cryptocurrency. Cas Piancey: So they're not thinking outside of that issue at all, which is kind of terrifying because almost every other issue is more important than whether or not you like cryptocurrency. Cas Piancey: But some of the people essentially, like you said, they're like, basically dismantling democracy. Cas Piancey: And Bennett was just like, well, if the ends don't justify the means, like, if the evil is worse than the single issue that you're voting for, how is this acceptable? Cas Piancey: And people are just like, no, these cryptocurrency, they don't want any government. Cas Piancey: So if it's helping to dismantle it, they're all for it. Cas Piancey: And I'm like, oh, my God, it's just so cringe inducing because it's not like they're even reflecting on an alternative, right? Cas Piancey: They're not suggesting like, oh, but this is the better form of government that we can have. Cas Piancey: It's like, well, no government and everything will be fine. münecat: Yeah, that's the problem. münecat: It's like people are seeing the issues, which is a good thing, but they're trying to fix everybody wants a simple fix for all of the issues in the world. münecat: And it always works really well when somebody comes along with a half convincing answer to all of the issues in the world. münecat: And MLMs came along and were like, oh, you can leave your job and you can spend more time with your family, and you don't even have to work that much, and you'll earn even more than what you are in your job. münecat: And obviously, this all is born out of the problems with capitalism as it is in society, as it is at the moment. münecat: But obviously, MLM is on the answer, and crypto isn't the answer, but they want this really simple answer. münecat: But when in reality, all crypto is doing is just rolling the clock back, like 100 years on all the progress we've made with financial institutions. münecat: And it's like, obviously, there's still problems there. münecat: Obviously, we haven't reached a utopia. münecat: We never will reach a utopia, but it's all about sort of battling forwards, not rolling the clock back. münecat: And a lot of people who watch my video were like, why do you love big banks so much? münecat: I don't. münecat: I don't love big banks, but I don't think allowing them to do whatever they want is the answer. Cas Piancey: Yeah, I think we get a lot of that, too. Cas Piancey: They think we love the Fed, the big banks, the treasury. Cas Piancey: Just because we criticize cryptocurrency. Cas Piancey: I think that's very funny, Bennett. Cas Piancey: Sorry, I don't want to take all the. Bennett Tomlin: No, you're okay. Bennett Tomlin: When I was watching the video, it was really exciting because you seem to really get the bigger picture of what's going on with cryptocurrencies a lot better than much of the critical media I've seen on cryptocurrencies. Bennett Tomlin: Like, you accurately pointed to some of the political issues in the way they want to dismantle certain political systems. Bennett Tomlin: You were able to bring in the future dystopian vision of techno feudalism that sits at the heart of a lot of cryptocurrency ideology. Bennett Tomlin: And so I'm really curious how you got to that point of understanding, like, what your process was to investigate cryptocurrencies and see them structurally that way. münecat: Yeah. münecat: I actually started out by reading a book that was pro-crypto because even though my gut feeling was quite anti crypto, I did want to get the other side of the story. münecat: So I started out with a book by George Gilder. münecat: I don't know if you know who he is. Cas Piancey: Oh, wait, yes, the libertarian guy. münecat: Yeah. münecat: But when I read the book, I decided not to look him up after I read the book because I didn't want my opinion of the book to be weighed on who he was. münecat: And then I looked him up after and I was like, oh, a lot of things really make sense now. münecat: But yes, I read his book anyway, and he basically tries to make the argument that blockchain is the answer to loads of problems. münecat: But he's like so vague. münecat: He doesn't explain how exactly an append only database is meant to solve all of the world's problems, but for some reason he thinks it is. münecat: And a lot of it's, like based on how Google and Facebook aren't building AI models very well, and we'd be able to do that a lot better on the blockchain. münecat: And that kind of got me into the into thinking about, like, what the real reasons are behind this and how it's probably all about data. münecat: So I kind of went down that route from reading that book, really, because it's all about sort of like these tech Silicon Valley people. münecat: They're looking like decades into the future and they're thinking Where's the world going? münecat: And they're thinking, democracy isn't working, because in a way, it isn't. münecat: The world's getting way too complicated for people to vote based on things that they know about. münecat: If the world is too complicated, we don't know who the best person is to vote for. münecat: So they're thinking, well, the future of the world is going to be based on algorithms, not on democracy. münecat: And so that's the way they see going forward. münecat: They need some way to collect as much data as possible to be able to run their society on algorithms basically, is how I see it. Bennett Tomlin: One thing you said there that was interesting to me, and it reminded me of your GB news video is your comment about how they're investing on potentially a very different timeline. Bennett Tomlin: And they're even okay with many of the ventures failing as long as they nudge certain other things in the direction they want. münecat: Exactly. münecat: Like people's mindset. Bennett Tomlin: Yeah, exactly. Bennett Tomlin: And so with cryptocurrency, I think that's potentially a striking example of that, because even if none of the projects are successful, they've started seeding a lot of young people with these very Austrian economic libertarian ideas. Bennett Tomlin: And I've started to shift those mindsets. Bennett Tomlin: So they've gotten that benefit. Bennett Tomlin: Now, even if the projects are completely unsuccessful. münecat: Yeah, that's exactly it as well. münecat: And even if the projects are successful, it's not like many of them are losing money anyway, because as long as they get people to buy into crypto, whatever projects they do, they're successful. münecat: It doesn't matter if they provide value or not, as long as the people buy crypto. Cas Piancey: Yeah, it's a classic. Cas Piancey: It's also a classic, as Bennett said, classic Overton. Cas Piancey: It's like an Overton window thing. Cas Piancey: Like if you just push everybody to think, well, Austrian economics make sense. Cas Piancey: Like that part makes sense to me, then you can just push forward a bunch of other horrible ideas. Cas Piancey: I definitely see that as being a huge part of it. Cas Piancey: But I do want to jump back into something that you initially started with, which is you started your YouTube career going after these MLM scams and people like Tony Robbins and Gary Vee. Cas Piancey: And you seem to believe that there's this overarching thematic psychology between all of these topics that you've selected so far. Cas Piancey: I'm wondering how you feel like Web Three falls into that psychology. Cas Piancey: Like, what is the psychology that you see kind of what's the insidious psychology of Web Three? münecat: It's like kind of a cult mentality, really. münecat: What works really well is providing people with, like, a salvage from the really complicated and Gray world with nuances and things they can't control that they don't understand. münecat: And somebody comes along with them and saying, actually, the world isn't Gray. münecat: The world is black and white. münecat: And I've got the rules, and they're clearly written out. münecat: And if you just follow these rules, then everything will be fine. münecat: And I think that's a really attractive thing these days because a lot of people are getting messed around by capitalism and all of that, and they don't have a lot of money. münecat: And they see the world as this really complicated thing that they don't have control over anymore. münecat: And a lot of the marketing around Crypto is take back control. münecat: And I saw the exact same thing with the Brexit campaign over here. münecat: It was like take back control of your country. münecat: A lot of the world, like sovereignty being thrown around a h*** of a lot when it doesn't really mean that at all. münecat: You don't have control over your own data on the blockchain. münecat: The people who have control over the data are the company that collects it, not you sure you can choose to have your data on the blockchain, but it's like we'll get to a point that they will build this world where it's, like, literally impossible for you to function without putting your data on the blockchain. münecat: So it's like they still have control. münecat: You don't have any control over this, too. münecat: It's just a marketing campaign, basically. Cas Piancey: One interesting difference that I can hear already ringing in my head between what you're talking about. Cas Piancey: So if we talk about, like, Rachel Hollis or Tony Robbins or whoever you've done other videos on those kind of people or Arbonne or these other MLM kind of culty things, they always argue that they are not a cult. Cas Piancey: They are not a religion. Cas Piancey: Either they're a business or they're a marketing firm or they're helping people or whatever. Cas Piancey: But I think now that Cryptocurrency has largely embraced the cult title, the religious cult, like, yes, we are a cult. Cas Piancey: Join in. Cas Piancey: Isn't that cool? Cas Piancey: And I'm wondering if that's almost more effective than those other kinds of MLM psychological scams. münecat: Yeah, I think that. münecat: Well, it is a corporate house because it's got a monetary aspect to it. münecat: It's very powerful. münecat: And I saw that with MLMs. münecat: Like, as soon as somebody promises you riches. münecat: People are so much more likely to just go along with whatever they say. münecat: It's a blurry line, isn't it? münecat: Like when something crosses over into what is a cult and what isn't, but the way that they sort of dismiss any criticism is like they even got a word for it. münecat: That's culty in itself. münecat: As soon as the person starts saying to ignore the people who are, like, being negative, I think that's quite culty as well, because they just call it, like negativity. münecat: It's not legitimate criticism. münecat: It's just negativity. münecat: That's when it sort of starts crossing over into cult land. münecat: Yeah, I saw the same thing with Tony Robbins and Rachel Hollis. münecat: I don't know if I call what they do occult, but it's definitely cultlike. münecat: Yeah. Bennett Tomlin: One thing you discussed in your video, which was particularly interesting to me, was the intersection between cryptocurrencies and influencer culture. Bennett Tomlin: Do you want to talk about a little bit what that intersection of the Venn diagram looks like? münecat: Yeah. münecat: It's just very disappointing to see so many influencers come out with rug pulls, basically just learning that this is what they think of their fans. münecat: This is what they think of the people who look up to them. münecat: It's really disappointing to see so many people like that. münecat: But even then you see that their fans, these people will pull rug pulls on them. münecat: And then even after they've done, the rug pull, they still love them. münecat: They're like, oh, it's not their fault. münecat: They just lost confidence in the project. münecat: They worked really hard on it, and it's really hard to get them to see the light. Speaker UNK: Yeah. Cas Piancey: That brings up your I still to this day don't understand this, Gary Vee. Cas Piancey: For anyone who's unfamiliar, bless your heart, and I hope you never have to find out who he is. Cas Piancey: But Gary Vee is I don't know what to call him, a venture capitalist. münecat: He's primarily an angel investor. münecat: So he'll go up to companies at the very start and drop millions into it or however much. münecat: And yeah, he'll do that across a load of different startups, like even some terrible ones. münecat: And then as soon as Juan does really well, he's like, see, look, I was right. münecat: I was right. münecat: He basically uses that to base his entire career off. Cas Piancey: Well, I heard him, there's a video going around, I don't know, yesterday, the day before or something like that, where it's Gary V on some podcast and they're like, well, you're not saying NFGs are the future, right? Cas Piancey: And he's like, yeah, no, I'm not saying NFT's are the future. Cas Piancey: I'm not saying NFTs are the future. Cas Piancey: I'm saying that I'm going to invest in, like 100 different NFPs. Cas Piancey: One of these is going to make it. Cas Piancey: One of these is going to be huge. Cas Piancey: And you're just like, first of all, shut off. Cas Piancey: Second, it's such an angel investor, VC, hedge fund, state of mind where it's like, yeah, pores, guys, pours. Cas Piancey: Listen up. Cas Piancey: I just want to tell you how you're going to make it. Cas Piancey: Take your money, all your money. Cas Piancey: See this new hip trendy thing, dump all your money into, like, 100 different things that are within that thing. Cas Piancey: So if it's AI just a hundred different AI companies, one of them, it's going to make you a million dollars. Cas Piancey: And that is the worst f****** advice I've ever heard. münecat: He's got so much money, he can afford the risk, whereas most of the people he's talking to can't afford that risk. Cas Piancey: But he doesn't care. Cas Piancey: He doesn't care what the poor people that he's talking to, as we know, because he's had, as you pointed out in your video, he does like midnight phone calls with Mr. Cas Piancey: Beast and Logan Paul and rich, famous people to tell them to buy board apes. Cas Piancey: It's the most cringe inducing thing I've seen. Cas Piancey: But he's still popular and he still has resonance in not just the cryptocurrency space. Cas Piancey: I think Silicon Valley likes this guy still. Cas Piancey: I think other hedge fund people seem to still think he's somehow knowledgeable. Cas Piancey: I just don't understand exactly what's going on there. Cas Piancey: But he's not the only one. Cas Piancey: He's like a common personality type in cryptocurrency, right? Cas Piancey: These guys are, like, drawn to this space. münecat: Worth noting that Gary was an angel investor in Coinbase, and he's probably making a h*** of a lot of money out of that. münecat: He's probably got a lot of investments that really hinge on him being able to make crypto a really successful thing. münecat: He's got many vested interests in making crypto really popular. münecat: But, yeah, in much the same way, I think Gary comes up to a lot of people with a really simple answer of how to get rich, which is just work really hard work all the time. münecat: It's like, on what? münecat: Gary work on what? münecat: But he won't say. münecat: He's extremely vague about everything. Bennett Tomlin: You should sell your neighbors the flowers you pulled out of their own flower bed. Bennett Tomlin: That's how you make it in this world. Bennett Tomlin: But I think that call cast you're talking about is like a really good example of a lot of the problems when influencer culture hits NFT and cryptoculture. Bennett Tomlin: Right? Bennett Tomlin: Because they're on this call and you've got Jake Paul and all these other dumbasses discussing how they think it's important that people begin investing in these NFTs, that they got this call from Gary Vaynerchuk and there's all these billionaires on the line and they're being told that this is the next big thing. Bennett Tomlin: And so if you want to get in on this next big thing, you need to invest. Bennett Tomlin: And they keep talking for a minute longer and you hear one of them go, oh, yeah? Bennett Tomlin: One of them asks, I think it was Mr. Bennett Tomlin: Beast. Bennett Tomlin: So what's your rarest punk? Cas Piancey: And he goes, yeah. Cas Piancey: Logan Paul says, what's your rarest ape or whatever it is? Cas Piancey: And he says. münecat: No idea. münecat: He had no interest in what these characteristics were at all. münecat: Mr. münecat: Beast sold them straight away. münecat: Or Vee Friends. Cas Piancey: He said V friends, right? münecat: Yes. münecat: So obviously Gary Vee had another call with him and he was like, you know what the next best thing is after these apes? münecat: It's my scribbles. münecat: Yeah. münecat: It's depressing that it works so well even on someone like Mr. münecat: Beast, who is obviously like, not the most stupid person in the world. münecat: Yeah. münecat: It's crazy. Bennett Tomlin: And it's funny to me that in order for Gary Vee to have friends, he had to Mint them on the blockchain. Bennett Tomlin: It's just like you said, really disappointing to see so many people just in such an outright and public way, try to take advantage of their fans and the influence they've developed. Bennett Tomlin: And then one of the things that's interesting, like, we keep mentioning Gary Fee and it's because he's got a certain enthusiasm that makes him hard to ignore. Bennett Tomlin: So when he was coming out with his most recent book, if you wanted to get on the white list for the NFT product that was going to be coming after that book, you had to buy twelve physical copies of the book and then you could buy the NSC. Cas Piancey: And I think in your video münecat, did you show someone who literally tweeted Gary Vee. Cas Piancey: This book is fire and was burning a copy of the book and then he retweeted that tweet. Cas Piancey: Am I getting that right? münecat: He liked it. münecat: Yeah. Cas Piancey: What is going on? münecat: It's just like capitalism on crack. münecat: I think you've completely removed any value from what you're selling at this point. münecat: You're telling people to buy twelve of your books. münecat: Why? münecat: It doesn't matter. münecat: You get a free JPEG. münecat: That's the point. münecat: We've got to. Bennett Tomlin: And not even a free JPEG. Bennett Tomlin: Right. Bennett Tomlin: You get the right to buy the JPEG is what I thought it was. münecat: But he doesn't pump those ones with Logan, Paul and Mr. münecat: Beast. Cas Piancey: Right. Cas Piancey: You're just the retail plea buying into it. münecat: Yeah. Cas Piancey: This is so frustrating to me because not only are we talking about, like, Gary Vee and these dumb NFT things, but like, a lot of this has been an issue always. Cas Piancey: So if you go back far enough, like sometimes sending Bitcoin can cost too much money for a poor person to be able to send a Bitcoin. Cas Piancey: And so when you start talking about, like, wanting this to be the future of finance, but then also we want to bank the unbanked, but then also poor people. Cas Piancey: Sorry, you can't really use this protocol at all. Cas Piancey: The whole thing is just a giant. münecat: Yeah, that's another thing I did actually mention is the way that you can only get certain NFTs if you can pay enough gas fees to buy them. münecat: You're not only bidding on the NFT, you're bidding on the gas fees to get the NFT faster than somebody else. münecat: It's like the whole thing is just coded to reward rich people and that's it and you even got into that. Bennett Tomlin: Which again, I really appreciated in this piece of media how that even matters at the consensus and protocol level. Bennett Tomlin: Like, you talked about how in proof of stake coins, your influence is, in effect, directly proportional to how much stake you control. Bennett Tomlin: And this is true for a variety of so called Dows and stuff where you're voting is proportional to how many tokens you can put up. Bennett Tomlin: And it is very common for cryptocurrency to reinvent this kind of plutocracy where the richest and most powerful get all of this control. münecat: Yeah, I mean, they kind of sell proof of stake as it being even less likely for a 51% attack to happen because somebody needs to have half of the currency on the blockchain to be able to do it. münecat: But if you sort of extrapolate, like think about how precious state would start and how because you get rewarded, like you have to have 32 east to even buy in to be a validator on proof of stake. münecat: And then the more blocks you validate, the more money you make. münecat: And that just extrapolates into the future of rewarding richer people with more cryptocurrency. münecat: And if you look into the future, that absolutely means that only a few people could end up with half of the money on the blockchain. Bennett Tomlin: This is actually even exacerbated in Ethereum because of their monetary policy after EIP 1559, which started burning the transaction fees once the merge goes live, prove a stake for Ethereum, it's supposed to become deflationary. Bennett Tomlin: So if you're staking, you're receiving the benefits from the new coins being issued, and you're receiving the benefits from all the transaction fees being burned. Bennett Tomlin: So you've got two ways that your proportional control is increasing. Bennett Tomlin: Well, anyone who actually uses the network is having their proportional control diluted out, which isn't great for a longterm economic system, but does benefit you if you're an early investor. münecat: Yeah, we've had deflationary currencies in the past, and they have benefited the people who originally had the most money. münecat: The rich elite owner class in the past have said, oh, well, the poor people are only poor because they're lazy, and I think that would happen again. münecat: It's your fault for not buying in early. münecat: Oh, it's your fault for not building some kind of Dow. Cas Piancey: It's already happening. Cas Piancey: I mean, that already happens. Cas Piancey: It's such a common trope that it's not even annoying anymore. Cas Piancey: It's just boring to me when people are like, have fun staying poor. Bennett Tomlin: It kind of dovetails really nice with Gary Vee's Sigma grind set mentality. Bennett Tomlin: The best thing to do is be born with no privilege and work 20 hours a day until you make it like me and can buy the Jets. Cas Piancey: This is the other point that actually that I forgot that I wanted to make. Cas Piancey: But it's funny that all three of us are sitting here talking about how difficult it is for people who perhaps lack the capital to join the club, join the party. Cas Piancey: Because recently a lot of us no-coiners have been told to check our privilege because we don't get it. Cas Piancey: We're the ones who don't get it. Cas Piancey: That Bitcoin Ethereum. Cas Piancey: These smart contracts and these new financial protocols are actually benefiting the poor people the most who need it the most. Cas Piancey: And for me personally, it's such a slight at what we do because we're clearly not trying to rip people off. münecat: Yeah. münecat: To be able to have the means to make content like we do, you have to be privileged in a way. münecat: Don't you like this thing? münecat: Obviously, we're not on the breadline or whatever, but why does there always have to be a monetary incentive to everything that you do? münecat: Obviously, I want to be paid for making my video. münecat: Like, this is my job. münecat: Now, I don't have anything else that I'm making money from, but I get people saying to me, oh, you're only doing this to make money. münecat: You do realize I could have made way more money from shilling crypto. münecat: I have an audience. münecat: I could have used that to my advantage for way more money than for talking against crypto. münecat: But they seem they're in this mindset of everybody does everything to make money, and that's a really bad mindset to have. münecat: Some people don't just want to make money. Cas Piancey: And I think that's where I'm coming from. Cas Piancey: Is this idea of like, well, check your privilege. Cas Piancey: Weirdo. Cas Piancey: You're being a rich first world creep is what you're being. Cas Piancey: And I'm like, man, maybe the Coiners who have been lucky and made a lot of money from their early investment in a crapshoot should check their privilege before they start telling all the no Coiners how they should identify financially and telling all the poor people in places like throughout Africa or let's say in Elizabeth, El Salvador. Cas Piancey: Yeah. Cas Piancey: That they know what's best for them. Cas Piancey: Because I feel like America or Britain or France or the Netherlands, we've all had our chance to tell them exactly how to run their countries and run their continents and how to do things. Cas Piancey: And we fucked it up really bad. Cas Piancey: So maybe we should step back and let them figure it out for themselves. münecat: Yeah. münecat: It does sort of tie into that whole Jack Dorsey thing with his very charitable endeavor of banking the unbanked with an extremely volatile Internet token. münecat: It just doesn't make any sense at all, does it? münecat: But I see that kind of psychology and very rich people all the time, they really like to sort of justify their incredible amounts of wealth by saying that they're being charitable when actually nothing that they do is charitable. münecat: They're so far removed from what people actually need that it's just not. münecat: But they like to say that because it makes them look good and it makes them feel better as well. münecat: I think so, sure. Cas Piancey: And I also think that the tax benefits are so intense that in my mind, that's how rich people think about charity is. Cas Piancey: They're like, yeah, how much money am I saving? münecat: Yes. münecat: When they set up like foundations and all of a sudden in their Wikipedia profile, it says philanthropist. Cas Piancey: Yes. Cas Piancey: Don't get me started, because I start going off. Cas Piancey: I start going off. Cas Piancey: When I think about Bill Gates donating to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I understand they do some good stuff, but you're just like, what? münecat: When the foundation has a board on it, it's just basically all of your friends who all think the exact same way as you do. münecat: It's basically another company, isn't it? münecat: That's all it is. Cas Piancey: None of these people are getting any less rich either. Cas Piancey: I should point out that all the billionaires who are going to give away all their money before they ever died, they sure do seem to still be topping the billionaire list right now. Bennett Tomlin: It's funny you mentioned that check your financial privilege thing, because the foundation that that book is supporting, the HRF, is, of course, another one of Peter Thiel's little projects because he's the largest human rights Foundation, Peter Thiel. Bennett Tomlin: He's the largest single donor behind Hrs, Peter Thiel. Bennett Tomlin: So just to connect that back to the beginning of the episode and now you can start to see why I was so excited when I was watching a münecat video, because you caught that. Bennett Tomlin: And a lot of people missed something, like how deeply Peter Thiel has embedded himself. Bennett Tomlin: And like Blake Masters, his former COO of Teal Whatever is running for Senate, JD Vance is Teal funded. Bennett Tomlin: And like, the same guys are the ones getting all the crypto money and the support from the crypto PACs because it's all United ideologically around this idea of creating, which I thought the analogy you came up with of like, this digital decentralized seastead was really accurate. Bennett Tomlin: They want this place where they can transact, act and create free of any regulatory supervision. Bennett Tomlin: And so they're doing that by weakening the places that still have regulatory supervision and trying to come up with systems that are increasingly hard to regulate. münecat: Yeah. münecat: When I read about Peter Till's plan to see SteadA, I'm going to have to do a whole video on Sea Stadium because it's like half scary and half hilarious at the same time. münecat: They haven't got very far with it yet. münecat: And the furthest that they've got is like this five meter square plinth in the middle of the sea somewhere. Bennett Tomlin: And there's also a group of bitcoiners who purchased a cruise ship to start their own Seastead. Cas Piancey: Wait, this is the same person who got arrested or almost got arrested and essentially executed in Thailand. Cas Piancey: But go on. Bennett Tomlin: Sorry, they forgot to do things like get insurance, make sure the ship was registered, pay for fuel. Bennett Tomlin: And so they ended up like stranded off the coast of Mexico or something without any fuel and needed to get rescued back to the mainland because their little SEAF adventure had ended disastrously. Bennett Tomlin: Then there was like a whole big legal case because the group that bought the boat had no money to deal with it. Bennett Tomlin: And whoever it was didn't want the boat a few miles off their coast anymore. münecat: Yes, it always ends up like that. münecat: It ends up a few miles off someone's coast, and then whoever's coast it is like, I don't want all these rich old white men here just avoiding taxes. münecat: This is not beneficial to me at all. münecat: A lot of people in my comments are talking about the game BioShock and seeing how it's very similar to that. münecat: I've never played like BioShock before. münecat: I have no idea existed. Cas Piancey: Bioshock is fun. Cas Piancey: Bioshock is good. münecat: Yes. münecat: Apparently it doesn't end well in BioShock. Cas Piancey: Yeah, it's funny that you bring up Sea Steady because I think Sea Steady was a more popular concept maybe five years ago where people really believed this idea of like, okay, we'll just build our own island of man made materials. Cas Piancey: It'll be great. Cas Piancey: And then they started trying it and they were like, oh wow, not only is this way harder than I thought it was going to be, it sucks. Cas Piancey: This is not fun and nobody enjoys it. Cas Piancey: So I think that's died back. Cas Piancey: But in its place, we've now got like, crypto Islands and places that Bennett and I have gone to. Cas Piancey: Like in Reno, where you have millionaires with egos bigger than the millions of dollars that they have being like, you know what we're going to do? Cas Piancey: We're just going to turn this desert into a blockchain utopia. Cas Piancey: And you're like, one, how two? Cas Piancey: Why blockchain? Cas Piancey: What does that have to do with changing everything here? Cas Piancey: And they're like, just trust me on this. Cas Piancey: I got this. münecat: Yeah. münecat: If cryptoland actually was successful, that's quite scary to think about. münecat: The website is still up and everything. münecat: I know the sale of the island didn't go through, but it seems like the whole project hasn't been abandoned. Cas Piancey: These things, they just linger on forever. Cas Piancey: You can go back one of the ones I've been talking about a lot lately because I think Max Kaiser is a Russian propaganda tool and a bad human being. Cas Piancey: Max Kaiser famously helped start a coin called Max Coin that still exists. Cas Piancey: Somehow you don't understand how it's not like Max Kaiser has spoken about Max Coin in five years or whatever, but it still is out there. Cas Piancey: So people can still buy it if they want to, I guess. Cas Piancey: But then people will argue that's the benefit of the blockchain, it's immutable. Cas Piancey: It'll always exist or whatever. Bennett Tomlin: Immutability is like. Bennett Tomlin: One of my challenges in discussing cryptocurrency with people who own cryptocurrency is that censorship, resistance, and immutability are not without serious externalities, right? Bennett Tomlin: Like, there may be times when it is worthwhile or even good to be able to send a transaction. Bennett Tomlin: A government wants to stop right. Bennett Tomlin: Or to be able to store a piece of data that people don't want to be stored. Bennett Tomlin: But the flip side of this is that it enables all the times you would want to stop that transaction or you desperately would want to remove that data. Bennett Tomlin: Those are off the table. Bennett Tomlin: Right. Bennett Tomlin: And so you end up with several companies have tried to do social media on the blockchain, right. Bennett Tomlin: Twetch, Bitclout, whatever Dan Larimer's bullshit was. Bennett Tomlin: And all of them ended up with this problem where people started posting awful things. Bennett Tomlin: Right. münecat: The Child Express probably anonymously as well, right? münecat: Yeah. Bennett Tomlin: That's a bad thing. Bennett Tomlin: You don't want a social media account or social media platform full of revenge porn and child exploitation. Bennett Tomlin: And the only solution they've come up with to solve that is to write, like, custom front ends that don't show you part of the blockchain. Cas Piancey: I just want to say that I would suspect that Cryptocurrency bros would argue that all of that stuff exists in our world as is. Cas Piancey: So like Facebook, there's a ton of child exploitation stuff on Facebook and on Google Images that is hidden by just by putting in the right search terms or whatever. Cas Piancey: And I mean, there's truth to that. Cas Piancey: I think they also would argue that all the financial negative stuff that, let's say, our government or these rich people do, you could see it on the blockchain. Cas Piancey: Wouldn't that be so much better? Cas Piancey: Isn't this the transparent version of what we're criticizing? Cas Piancey: So I'd be interested to hear, actually, both of your thoughts on that. münecat: I think there's a reason that append only databases have never been used in businesses before. münecat: There is a reason things are deleted sometimes and don't always see that as some sort of conspiracy of somebody trying to hide something from you. münecat: It ties in really well with the whole, like, Q and on Pizza Gate thing. münecat: Like, people are convinced that there's some sort of secret cabal who are trying to hide everything from you. münecat: But I don't think the world works that well. münecat: Like, I don't think people are able to keep secrets. münecat: Yeah, keep secrets that well. münecat: And even if they did, they wouldn't hide, like, coded clues about it in the public for everybody to see. Bennett Tomlin: From, like a very practical viewpoint, I delete things sometimes tweets I put out, and then as soon as it actually posts, I read it and go, you know what? Bennett Tomlin: I would rather no one else read what I just wrote. Bennett Tomlin: So I delete it. Bennett Tomlin: Right. Bennett Tomlin: Or back in College, I wrote a book on intermittent fasting. Bennett Tomlin: And then a year or two later, as I was reading more studies, I was seeing increasing evidence that intermittent fasting as a diet was leading to an increased incidence of eating disorders. Bennett Tomlin: Right. Bennett Tomlin: And so at that point, I removed my book from the marketplace and took down a lot of my posts and stuff like that. Bennett Tomlin: And I was able to do that because I was able to go in and delete the posts and remove it from sale and do those things because it wasn't immutable, right. Bennett Tomlin: I thought it was potentially causing harm and so I was able to stop it. Cas Piancey: münecat, do you see any value whatsoever in any of this stuff, or do you think it's all just bottom up, top down, total trash? münecat: I did try really hard to find some positive. münecat: If this was ever useful for anyone, then it would only be useful if we regulated it. münecat: And if we regulated it in any way, then all of a sudden it's just not decentralized at all. münecat: It's not decentralized anyway, but it would be even less decentralized if we even regulated it, because there's got to be someone who looks over these regulations and decides on them. münecat: And if it was regulated, it would be better. münecat: But I don't think we'd end up with a better system than what we have now. münecat: And the system we have now is imperfect and obviously benefits the rich, but it's a better system than the blockchain. münecat: And I think we just need to try and push forward with the policies that we've built over the past few centuries and not roll them back. münecat: Is my general thoughts on it. Cas Piancey: Are you at all concerned with like people in cryptocurrency are constantly concerned about government overreach. Cas Piancey: They're constantly concerned about your Privacy and your rights. Cas Piancey: They're constantly concerned about a lot of issues that aren't necessarily our primary issues. Cas Piancey: But I wonder if you see truth to that and what you would hope if you do see any truth to that. Cas Piancey: I mean, if you say no, then cool. Cas Piancey: But if you do see any truth to that, what you would hope to see as a solution to the government having sort of too much power. Cas Piancey: Yeah, sure. münecat: Yeah, I do see that side of the argument. münecat: Like you've got to fight against totalitarianism in all its forms. münecat: But I think that in government there's good actors and there's bad actors. münecat: But when you sort of compare that with the free market, you're literally saying, well, people who are only motivated by money know better what's for society than what government does. münecat: And I think, yeah, in government there's good and bad people. münecat: And I think a better system is to vote for who you think is the good people, because in that system, at least no matter how much money you have, you all have equal amount of say. münecat: And in this world that they're proposing is absolutely the opposite of that feels quite futile. Cas Piancey: The alternative that you're talking about that they present, I guess. münecat: Yeah, it's quite scary to think about where it could get. münecat: Even though this system we have is pretty terrible, that one is much worse. Bennett Tomlin: I know people sometimes look at me as scant's when I start to say crypto wants to bring about a techno neo feudalism, and they say, no, it doesn't it wants to unseat the man or whatever. Bennett Tomlin: But when you actually listen to people who own cryptocurrency discuss cryptocurrencies, they'll often basically admit that that's what they want, right? Bennett Tomlin: They'll talk about building their citadels to keep people out or say certain people aren't going to make it, which of course leaves the question as to make it where and if you ask them to the Citadel, to financial freedom, to being a member of this future class. Bennett Tomlin: Like, there is a tax and acknowledgement, especially among Bitcoin, but among crypto as a whole, that a probable end state is feudalism, is a bunch of people working for the money few. münecat: That's definitely where it would end up. münecat: Yeah. münecat: If there were no regulations put on it at all, that's for sure where it would end up. münecat: I don't know if that will happen, how likely that is to happen. münecat: But yeah, what I'm trying to say is I don't want it to happen. münecat: There's a lot of people under my video. münecat: Like, Ha, look back on this video in five years, you'll see how wrong you were. münecat: And it's like, well, you're happy about that. Cas Piancey: I definitely feel that. Cas Piancey: And again, we're coming full circle here in that it's like the same people who are absolutely telling everybody, like, look, we're trying to help the poorest of the poor people. Cas Piancey: We're trying to bank the unbanked and we're trying to just benefit society as a whole. Cas Piancey: And then you say, hey, Zoom out like you always tell us to do and look at what the future holds for you and your Bitcoin as a world reserve currency. Cas Piancey: And they just don't want to do that. Cas Piancey: They don't want to see that they are bringing a thousand years of we're rolling the clock back 1000 years on finance, basically. münecat: It is also very hypocritical to like, if you're investing all of your money into Bitcoin or whatever, crypto, you're basically betting against your own country's currency, aren't you? münecat: These people call themselves Patriots. münecat: And I don't think that they realize it's so hypocritical to bet against your own country and then say that you love America. münecat: The Fiat system. münecat: Money system is basically they're saying it's not backed up by anything and they're saying it's fake. münecat: It's like, do you realize that that's the exact thing that's holding your country together and making it stable? münecat: You're saying it has no value and that everybody should sell it. münecat: Do they not realize what that comes to? münecat: Like, you use it for sanctions to keep your country secure, but they don't seem to realize, like, the sort of cognitive dissonance of all of that. Cas Piancey: I had a 21 year old American tell me that Fiat is going to die and that I don't know what I'm talking about and that get ready for it, essentially. Cas Piancey: And I was like, man, I'm so tired of seeing this. Cas Piancey: I've been seeing it for decades now. Cas Piancey: I'm old enough that I can say I've been seeing this for at least 1520 years now. Cas Piancey: Guess what? Cas Piancey: The US dollar is still around. Cas Piancey: The British pound is still around. Cas Piancey: The Euro is still around. münecat: It's always been a money making scheme to make people scared of whatever big thing is happening though, isn't it? münecat: Make people scared of a thing and tell them that you've got the solution. Bennett Tomlin: It's always been the way that reminded me of one last thing I want to touch on, which was you brought up the business plot from back when FDR was President in the United States and some of the ideological similarities between the group behind that and what's common in cryptocurrency. Bennett Tomlin: Could you speak to that briefly? münecat: Basically, we got rid of the gold standard and the rich elite were not happy with that. münecat: And basically they love the gold standard so much because it takes monetary power away from the government, basically because it's backed up by a physical thing. münecat: And there's also a lot of arguments that like gold doesn't even really have value in itself anyway. münecat: It's just like gold has value based on what we think of it in the same way as being. münecat: Yeah, we don't really use it much apart from conductors or jewelry. münecat: But anyway, they love it so much because it's like this rigid thing that they can base all of the free market on. münecat: Yeah. münecat: And then when Nazism had arise in the they found that they had the same ideologies because this whole idea about Jewish people, like being in control of the banks and the media and the whole thing about sort of inflation being you're being told inflation is good is actually propaganda because it's just them controlling and getting rid of your money because they want to keep it for themselves. münecat: And it's the same ideologies that are now being repeated by Bitcoin enthusiasts mostly, which is I don't think a lot of them realize that. münecat: And then obviously when Jordan Peterson was announced to speak at a Bitcoin event, they were all really shocked when in reality, obviously he's got deep ties with Peter Thiel. münecat: They're really trying to control the thinking of people to think that the way they do. münecat: And it's really quite scary when you dig into how deeply this is connected between these people. Cas Piancey: What you're talking about doing is what I think most people in cryptocurrency would say, do your own research and what you're actually doing is the most important research, which is following the money. Cas Piancey: And I think almost none of these cryptocurrency Bros bother doing that, which is so funny because that's what the blockchain is supposed to be all about is financial transparency. Cas Piancey: But most wouldn't know that there's a Peter Thiel Jordan Peterson connection, or for instance, what Bennett said. Cas Piancey: I didn't even know Peter Thiel and the Human Rights Foundation connection. Cas Piancey: These things exist. Cas Piancey: They're actually right in front of our faces. Cas Piancey: It's like how Banksy would put on a bright, bright jumper or whatever and go paint. Cas Piancey: And then nobody would ask a question because it looks like he's supposed to be there. Cas Piancey: It's like if Peter Thiel just implants himself in the cryptocurrency ecosystem, then it's like nobody ever asked, Why the f*** is Peter Thiel hanging out here and being a kind of weird neo N***? Cas Piancey: You're doing a really great thing. Cas Piancey: Not just by entertaining people and talking about it, but hopefully some people are learning how to do your own research, which is like what they always tell us to do. Cas Piancey: So I appreciate that. Cas Piancey: That's all I wanted to say. münecat: Yeah. münecat: Thank you. münecat: It's always a problem telling people to do their own research because we're all looking for stories, aren't we? münecat: We're all just looking for things that back up our existing world views. münecat: And I think we can only sort of get to whatever the truth is, whether the truth even exists, by sort of talking about things, having a discourse and watching my videos, but also watch people that disagree with me. münecat: It's all about sort of throwing information around, isn't it? münecat: We come to a conclusion eventually. münecat: I always think of that experiment where I don't know if you heard about this, but they get like hundreds of people to guess the amount of M and Ms in a jar. münecat: And out of all of the people who guess how many Mills are in the jar, if you take the average, then it's like the correct amount. münecat: So that's what keeps me going, like, thinking that we're going to get to the right answer eventually. Cas Piancey: I mean, I think that's actually I think people think about no Coiners or critics and skeptics like myself and you and Bennett as people who are incredibly pessimistic and kind of like vibe of hating the world cynical. Cas Piancey: And I just don't think that's true. Cas Piancey: I am very pessimistic about new businesses. Cas Piancey: I'm very pessimistic about people who tell me, like, I'm going to fix the financial system, bro, that I'm very pessimistic about. Cas Piancey: But when it comes to the future of humanity, I actually think I'm far more optimistic than most of these cryptocurrency people. münecat: Yeah. münecat: Technology is being innovated at an increasingly fast rate, and I think so many good things will come out of that as long as we keep it in check. münecat: Things like 3D printing and all of these, what do you call it? münecat: Biotech firms are doing really interesting stuff, but some of them are doing really scary stuff. münecat: I don't know if you've heard about, like, Peter Thiel and all of these Silicon Valley people are trying to live forever. münecat: It's crazy. Bennett Tomlin: Drinking some blood. Cas Piancey: Yeah. Cas Piancey: I mean, they're all getting isn't Brian Armstrong doing that to the CEO of Coinbase? Cas Piancey: I think it's a lot of these guys, but yeah, all of the billionaires want to do that. Cas Piancey: And I think it says a couple of things. Cas Piancey: But one is, you know how people say, like, money can't buy you happiness I almost wonder, like, maybe it can, because these people sure do seem to want to live a lot longer than I do. münecat: Yeah. münecat: A lot of them are cryogenically frozen as well, aren't they? münecat: Because they think that they'll be able to be unfrozen in the future. münecat: I mean, there must be some good research and that they're paying so much for it. münecat: I don't know. Cas Piancey: But yes, I think it's the only option that there even is. Cas Piancey: So they're just like, f*** it, throw the Dart at the board. Cas Piancey: Let's hope it sticks. Cas Piancey: People love. Cas Piancey: And this is another great point. Cas Piancey: I try to end this soon, but your video helped me remember how much we love to idolize very wealthy people. Cas Piancey: And it's a very American thing. Cas Piancey: I don't know if that's all over the world, but it is definitely in America. Cas Piancey: Everyone wants to get as rich as the richest rich people. Cas Piancey: And once you see how rich the rich people have gotten, you assign them all this. Cas Piancey: It's like Gary Vee or other people. Cas Piancey: But they must be smart. Cas Piancey: They must know more about the world than I do. Cas Piancey: They must have more wisdom than I do. Cas Piancey: And the reality is that, no, of course they don't. Cas Piancey: They're just people. Cas Piancey: They're just like you. Cas Piancey: And so when even when we go like, oh, there must be something to life extension, it's like, no, there absolutely isn't. Cas Piancey: And they're just nutcases. münecat: They just need something else to throw their money into, isn't, don't they? münecat: So it's just another thing to throw either space or life extension, basically throw another million at that and it might work. münecat: It's the same thing as, like, throwing a million into a startup. münecat: Yeah. münecat: I think that they want to in a way, because they're in the tech world. münecat: They kind of want to come back in 20, 30, 40 or however many years and see where it got to. münecat: I think that's what they actually want, and they want to see if their ideas actually made it into the future. münecat: And I just think it would be quite funny if Peter Thiel got frozen. münecat: Then he came back in like 50 years and there was some sort of, like, Communist socialist utopia going on. münecat: And it turns out that actually worked really well. Cas Piancey: I would like it better if his AI that he created woke him up and it was like Terminator Two, Judgment Day, and he just like, instantly the robot just says, like, you made me and just ripped him apart. Bennett Tomlin: Raphael Nikolay, the Ponzi Scheming, founder of Bitfinex, is now super into life extension. Cas Piancey: Makes sense. Cas Piancey: Yeah. Cas Piancey: Ponzi schemes, of course, would be because then the Ponzi can actually go on forever, then the Ponzi won't ever happen. Cas Piancey: This is fantastic. Cas Piancey: I'm so glad you could join us. Cas Piancey: Is there anything you would want our listeners to kind of if and when they watch your video, what should the main takeaway be? münecat: Oh, I don't know. münecat: Just watch it and you'll come with your own takeaway, I suppose. münecat: But yeah, just be very mindful about the people behind crypto. münecat: It's not this grassroots movement that many people think it is. münecat: It's all these very sort of scary people that want to rule the world with algorithms. Cas Piancey: I think Bennett and I often we fell into this rabbit hole mostly because of the characters that were involved. Cas Piancey: I think that more so than like, wow Bitcoin or tether or Ethereum. Cas Piancey: It was like, man, these executives are fucking weird, man. Cas Piancey: So I think that's actually a good point and compelling for people. Cas Piancey: It's a great point. Cas Piancey: Yeah. Cas Piancey: Thank you for joining us. münecat: Thank you for having me. münecat: It's been great. münecat: Lovely. Cas Piancey: Well, I hate to close out a really wonderful episode like that in a sad fashion, but I'm getting word from upstairs President of crypto critics corner, Bennett Tomlin has let me know that if you guys don't rate and review the podcast, Crypto critics corner is going to get canceled. Cas Piancey: He's going to cancel the show and there's nothing I can really do to control him. Cas Piancey: The man has rage and temper in his heart and I wish I could stop him, but I can't. Cas Piancey: So if you could read and review the podcast, you can save the show. Cas Piancey: Good luck. Cas Piancey: God speed. Cas Piancey: Everything. Bennett Tomlin: Everybody. Cas Piancey: Bye.